Shayne Carter is worried that New Zealand might have grown tired of hearing from him over the last few years, despite it being one of the most diverse and productive periods of a career that has spanned five decades. In 2019 the mastermind behind Dimmer and Straightjacket Fits released his memoir Dead People I Have Known, followed by the documentary Life In One Chord in 2025, which is the cinematic companion to the book. Last November he quietly released REforms, a collaboration between Carter and the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra that reimagines tracks from Carter’s expansive songbook. After recently completing a solo tour around some of the North Island’s smaller towns, and receiving rave reviews, this Friday Carter is set to perform one of the largest shows of his career, REforms with the NZSO, as part of the Lōemis Festival that is currently taking place in Wellington. I recently had the pleasure of catching up with Shayne to chat about REforms, coming full-circle, the magic of songwriting, and maintaining his infamous punk-rock ethos.

You are scheduled to perform your REforms album with the NZSO in mid-June as part of the Lōemis Festival in Wellington. How did the idea for the collaboration with the NZSO come about?

I was approached by the NZSO, and they asked me if I'd be interested in doing a show with the orchestra, because they had got wind that I'd sort of been sussing out classical music over the last few years. The proposal that was put together was a show that I ended up doing in the South Island, in Christchurch. I selected some of my favourite tunes for an orchestra to play, which was like a dream, and then did some of my songs at the end of it with the orchestral arrangement. It was actually the conductor, Alexander Shelley, who's an English conductor who was out here, and I did six of my own songs for the orchestra. And he said I should just get a few more arrangements and do an album. And I thought that sounded like a blimmin' good idea. So with the help of Creative New Zealand, we got the bucks to do it, because it's quite an expensive undertaking to hire the NZSO and the various places you can record them in. I used the arranger that had done my songs for the live show, John Beatson, who was great to work with, and I thought his arrangements of the tunes were really great. So that's how the record came about.

The album has clearly been popular, as the first pressing of the vinyl has sold out, and you are now onto the second pressing.

We are, yeah. I think it's a bit of a sleeper, actually, in that when it came out, it was on the tail end of the film Life in One Chord, and I kind of felt like I'd been exposed enough to the greater New Zealand public, so we didn't really do much of a publicity drive for the album. But I hope that people caught on to it, because I'm really proud of it, and I think it's a beautiful piece of work. And I love the fact that I've just finished a solo tour of the country, and it's just completely the opposite of that [album]. It's really interesting having some songs that I play in the solo set are also these orchestral versions of them as well. To be honest, I enjoy both renderings of the material. I really love doing solo shows as well.

I think it's just the truism, really, that if a tune is a good, it will sound good played by an orchestra or on a kazoo..

Having been to one of the shows on your solo tour, it really was captivating to experience some of those songs stripped back and performed in a different way. Given the longevity of your career, it must have been quite difficult to narrow it down to ten tracks for REforms. How did you go about selecting the songs?

You know, I've sometimes thought, even when I was a kid playing guitar, “Oh, this actually sounds like a cello or something,” you know what I mean? And when I'm playing, I've actually quite often imagined the guitar as a different instrument, just for my head. So I felt like it could be applied to an orchestral kind of setting. But I can't truthfully say that I've ever written a song wondering what it would sound like with an orchestra. But when the opportunity arose… I can't even remember how I selected those tunes; I do know that half the tunes on the album are from another sleeper record of mine, which was my piano album Offsider from 2016. I kind of knew some of the songs on that record were really good tunes, and I approached that record in sort of such a determinedly amateur way, doing it all on piano, when I don't know how to play piano. I kind of liked that record, and that's how I got a hold of classical music. And a lot of the tunes on there were inspired by Schubert and songwriters like that. Half of the REforms is tunes from that album, and it's kind of like the tunes which were classically inspired have made their journey into a full orchestral setting. And I love the fact that these bare-bones tunes — basically just remedial piano, and drums, and that was it — are now being rendered by a hundred-piece orchestra. Once again, it goes back to if it's a good tune, it's a good tune. When I talk about stuff being classically inspired, the other thing I've learned — it's just all music, you know. And it doesn't matter what the genre is;, it’s still vibrations being made on instruments and people using their voice to tell a story. It's still storytelling. It's still describing a feeling, and it's still this communal experience and all the things that music is. There's great opera, there's great electronica; there's great punk rock, you know? Speaking of punk rock, I actually just got sent a badge in the mail today that I ordered; ‘Never Trust a Hippie’, which is a famous Sex Pistols quote, like a slogan that is completely stupid. And I love it, like, being my age and walking around wearing a badge saying ‘Never Trust a Hippie’ — how ridiculous is that?

I love the random and the ridiculous regardless of what age you are, and I sincerely hope that you continue to apply that to your modus operandi as well.

Well, sometimes you do have to be an adult, but at the same time it's good to be childish too, isn't it? It's quite liberating. I was reading this book yesterday from that band Wilco. What's his name? Jeff Tweedy. I don't really know Wilco, but he wrote a book about songwriting, and it was actually just really good to read, you know, another songwriter and their thoughts on songwriting and all that kind of stuff, because it's a mystical business. He was talking about how adults get more and more stymied in their creative joy as they get older and they need to see… look at a kid when they're doing a drawing and how involved they get in it, how non-critical of it they are and non-judgmental about the thing that they're doing, and the enjoyment and how liberated they are when they do it. And also how delighted they are with their finished effort. I really like that, because I do think adults, as you get older, the self-critical faculties grow more and people get more serious or more worried about what other people think. I think the older I get, the less I care what other people think. I'm going to do me, and I don't really care what anyone else thinks about it. It's a great way to do, isn't it?

Watching your career trajectory over the last several decades, and having read your memoir and watched Life In One Chord, what a fascinating career you've had, and your evolution — no pun intended — has continued. Thinking back to your younger self, who was performing at Kaikorai Valley High School’s talent fest, watching the school principal storm out of the hall as you played, what do you think that younger version of Shayne would think about performing with the NZSO?

Kind of ignorant, but also on the money too. There's a good thing about naivety because in some ways I think my music journey, with all my stupid young-person prejudices and all that kind of stuff, I had to go right through the whole music journey to come out the other end and think, “Oh, when I was a kid, I was actually right.” Because when you're a kid, it's black and white, and you get confused by the grey areas; so in a lot of ways, I was right at the start. I don't know how I would feel; I just wouldn't have been able to relate to orchestras or classical music at that point. But I'd be very happy that at this advanced age I'm wearing a ‘Never Trust a Hippie’ badge, so I'll definitely stay true to my roots, but as far as the journey goes, I don't know — it's like anybody's life, isn't it? And I think like anybody's life, you want to feel like you don't get stuck in a rut. I know with my creativity, I've always tried to challenge myself and just to keep exploring, because if you keep exploring, you're never going to get to the bottom of anything, but it just means I'm a firm believer that staying interested is a life force both for yourself and for your creativity. So I still am interested, I still hear great music; I just feel like it's just this journey of discovery that you never get to the bottom of, and I can even apply that to stuff like songwriting and all that kind of stuff. I had a cup of tea with Don McGlashan the other day, and we were talking about songwriting, as we occasionally veer off when we get away from our more childish subjects, and I said to him that I still have no idea how songwriting works; I don't have the magic formula. But the fact that it is still a mystery means when I do it, I still have a sense of discovery about it..

From an observer’s perspective, it seems to be a form of conjuring, or a kind of magic that you're creating when you're not following a particular formulaic method for songwriting.

Well, it is magical; ask anyone who's a music fan and ask them how they feel when they hear their favourite bits of music. It's a feeling that you can't even describe really, but it is powerful and it is mystical, and it's kind of primal as well. Like I said before, it's a communal thing; it's something you share with other human beings, and if someone likes your song, it's because there's something in there that they can relate to; that you've articulated something that someone else feels or senses as well, and for me, that's been a really big reward as far as my own musical journey goes. It's just simply knowing that it's connected with some people, and I think that's kind of your reward, really.

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, sometimes it's difficult to articulate that sort of primal effect that music can have on you, but there's a quote I came across of yours that, you know, once again talking about it's all vibration and if it moves the listener, it's doing its job.

I guess it's like anyone who's doing a good job at what they do; you just know when you've got it right, and equally you know when it's not right. You know, those magical moments where you stumble across that bit of magic that also involves usually just simply a lot of graft and labour to get there.

I was also quite moved when watching Life In One Chord where you were performing one of the songs from Offsider with the choir from St Hilda's School in Dunedin. That must have been a real full-circle moment for you, being in a school hall in your home town with the choir performing one of your songs.

It was really moving and oh so beautiful, and those girls from that school with their sort of clear voices. Youth intrinsically contains hope, and that's just a beautiful thing to be around.

And when I heard my song coming back and their clear, pristine voices, it really moved me. I love that; it was beautiful. And as far as my own school hall goes, well, I've gone back to my old school hall a couple of times. Actually, I judged the talent quest there a couple of years ago. After my childhood controversies at talent quests at high schools, I had really mixed feelings about that. I didn't actually like school that much, but it was great to go back, and everyone was so lovely and welcoming, and also just to offer encouragement to the kids, because that school was kind of the working class area of Dunedin — people can be quite snobbish about those things. So it was just good to just offer the kids some encouragement; tell them, “Look, don't ever let people judge you from where you come from or your class or your race or your gender or whatever.” That's their small mind talking. That's one thing I could offer those kids from experience there.

Shayne Carter performs REforms with the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra on Friday 19th June at the Michael Fowler Centre in Wellington. For more information and tickets visit www.loemis.nz