Hello, Mark - sorry for the delay. I was doing something and I lost track of time. And then I came in and it took forever for the computer to turn on and load up and all that crap.

It is an honour to speak to you today.

Well, it's an honour to speak to you as well. Thank you.

I was talking to a friend last night who first introduced me to Heathen - this was like shortly after Victims of Deception came out and he was like, you're into religious music and religious heavy metal, right. Yeah, take a listen to this. it was like, yeah. Uh, yeah. Okay, cool. This is an awesome album and I loved it and it was like, yeah, you're just taking the Mickey out of me, but I think that was one of the first albums that I listened to, that had pretty much all the elements that I really loved, like, your voice, the melodies, dual guitar solos, long songs heavy and just, it was a phenomenal release - then you guys disappeared.

We didn't disappear. No. the band took a hiatus for awhile. Yeah.

As far as little old New Zealand was concerned, you guys disappeared completely. Then like 19 years later, we came out with The Evolution of Chaos and now it's another 10 years and we've got the new album Empire of the Blind - so what's been going on.

A lot of just living life is, you know, different things, different aspects of things that got in our way, I guess. After, when we did Victims, we actually had the opportunity to work with Debbie Abono, who was a, she's a mainstay, she was like helped out a lot of bands in the Bay Area and in management and support and she was good friends with the Sepultura camp and was able to get us on a six week run with Sepultura in Europe.

We did that and had a great time and did really well and came back and we just got out, finished with that first Gulf War that was happening - it was kind of a bit of a recession in the States and grunge was starting to hit the airwaves - the PMRC was on attack with heavy metal, you know, basically accusing us all of being Satanists. Radio turned from heavy metal and they embraced hip hop and they embraced the grunge and they turn their back on us and that hurt for awhile.

During that time, we, we worked on some stuff to do an EAP, trying to keep things alive - then Lee had an opportunity to join a band called Die Krupps, which is a techno industrial band from Germany. And he went to do a tour and then they loved them and asked them to join the group; so he did that for almost six years. He was living mostly in Germany and so couldn't do Heathen without Lee.

Consequently time just went by. I was doing different projects, everybody was doing other things. Then Lee came back and he'd toured so much that it was hard to really get into focus and it wasn't until we were asked to reform to play the Thrash Of The Titans show; a benefit for Chuck Billy and Chuck Schuldiner from Death, who were both having issues with cancer. So that's when we brought the band back together to do that show. Then we got invited to do Waken a year later , And that's when we knew we wanted to do it again, that, that heavy metal and the metal that we do was back.

That's very similar to the story that Death Angel had, that they kind of reformed for that same benefit show and things just kind of picked up and reignited and the timing was right for them, for the music, for the bands and, and the scene.

Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of bands that reformed to do that show and Death Angel was one of them. Actually, most of the guys , were playing together , in just a different, it was a different group and , the music was a bit different and , it took them a minute cause they were really into what they were doing.

Mark was doing another group called All Time Highs, which was, they were awesome group - but, you know, when metal calls, you know, you gotta answer that call.

Definitely. So we're now back with the fourth album, isn't it really is. Yes. The fourth album and there was the. One demo or two demos or so, but Empire Of The Blind, which comes out September 18th, I believe. When I heard the announcement came out, I was like, Oh, really? They're back again. Cool. Awesome. Then in the first single dropped - The Blight and ah, it was just all those memories of like the earlier albums came flooding back. There's like, your voice is still awesome man.

Oh, well, thank you.

I take good care of myself.

Do you actually have any kind of a special regimen for keeping your voice in track over the last 30 years or so, or.

Well, I mean, I, you know, I take good care of myself and I'm a swimmer, I've always been a swimmer, so keep my lungs strong. And I have , I had some training and so I have some vocal warmups and things that I do to prepare. And , you know, I do it from time to time when I'm not really doing anything really active, kind of give my voice a break and just kind of sing, you know, to whatever, but definitely when we're getting ready to record or when we're out on the road, it's something that I do to keep my voice strong and protect my voice from damage.

So when it came to writing the new album, when did this process actually start for Empire? Was it , how many years ago did you start?

Well, I would say it was right, you know, right after we finished our, you know, The Evolution Of Chaos, maybe, somewhere really close after because Kragen had already written some stuff and Lee has a bunch of stuff, but we ended up, Lee didn't finish anything for this record.

He was so busy with Exodus and just didn't have the time, where Kragen multitasked and just a fireball as far as working and doing lots of other things and multitasking and was able to write songs as time went on. And even when he was filling in for Gary Holt, with Exodus managed to write.

It took a while to complete everything, but the time it just sort of happened the way it happened. Fortunately for us, the timing was good because we were able to work with Zeus who produced the record. I don't think if we were ready five years ago, uh, that I don't think those stars would have aligned just, you know, just yet.

So who's the main and songwriter, is it you, Lee, or the whole band, or who's actually.

Primarily it's been Lee and I, and then now Kragen, and with this record - Kragen, you know, overachieved and wrote the entire album. He did a Roger Waters on us and, you know he had a vision and went with it and was just on fire.

It was actually kind of a nice sort of pause for Lee and I because we worked really hard on Victims and The Evolution of Chaos, you know, for most of the record that, you know, Lee and I wrote that. So the dynamic is different, but Kragen understands sort of the Heathen way or the Heathen formula. And so, I don't think that we lost anything by letting him just do his thing.

Yeah, it definitely feels like a Heathen record. It's got very similar lyrical themes, that the music is kind of, it's evolved, but it's similar and it feels like he knows the band and you're comfortable with everything that's going on and it is actually - great. I've only listened to the album twice so far and it's definitely going to be one of my favourites of the year, I believe.

Well, I hope so.

With everything that, going on in the world, I was wondering whether the title of any of the tracks changed or the name of the album changed with response to I guess the state of things that are going on in the world and America currently over the last couple of years, how does that kind of progress - was that kind of set in stone when you started the writing process? .

Well, I think it just evolved, around just everything. But I think that, I don't think that Kragan set out to, I mean, I think he had, different ideas in mind, looking at the way things are going, and the way they've been going for the last 20 years or so, and talking with him, I mean, he really did took, a lot from the last record and sort of carried it over into this record.

That's how we've sort of done it from the beginning anyway, we'd sort of, because there's so much time in between. I mean, we're seeing history all the time. We're seeing many things sort of transpire. And we have a lot to pull from, you know, and especially now in the last, the last four years or so actually maybe eight years actually.

Just watching how things have changed, how the dynamic of the world and in our country, how things have changed. So but I think the titles, I mean, I think. A lot of that, he already had it just happened to turn out in a way where you just go, Whoa, you know, how'd you how'd, you know, that was going to be that way. You know.

Cause he's the mastermind behind it all.

Well, on this one, he is for sure. Yeah. I know people ask me, what's the song about I'm like, you need to talk to him. He's the, he's the crazy man that wrote all this stuff.

Well, yeah, it's, it's definitely going back to what you were saying before about being called satanic and the whole PRMC kind of thing. It's like, I don't think I've ever seen anything that could be remotely called satanic, definitely anti church and anti organised religion. and and that seems to be a common theme, like even with the title Empire Of The Blind, you're kind of...

Some of the other song titles that just escaped me off hand kind of gave me the, the upfront kind of thought of it's the antiestablishment, the people are being led or lied to - and whether that's kind of a play on false news and social media everything is kind of fake these days.

But we just don't know. We just don't, you know what I mean? The theme of that song really is, is just, you know, how the social and political landscape has been manipulated or we've been manipulated by the political social landscape through the media. And you know what I mean? It's. Through a social media, all the different, you know, different aspects of things, information overload, and you get conspiracy theories from this angle and that angle.

And it's really hard for some people to navigate and they tend to latch on to something that maybe feels comfortable or feels like they're convinced on that certain subject or whatever. And they'll run with it and they'll argue that point. And. You know, without research, you know?

Well, they'll research it. They'll research it from the one website on the internet that fed them the story to start with.

Right. Well, that's yeah. That's a narrow, narrow view of research, I guess.

So this is kind of where I normally ask about touring and stuff, but I guess that's kind of a nonstarter in the world at the moment. We're lucky here that we're having local shows and concerts again now with local bands. And we just had our first music festival last night and actually, which is great - what's the plan from the Heathen camp looking outwards going forward. Is there a plan for touring a plan for how I guess the future?

Well, sure. I mean like today, the title track Empire Of The Blind , we had a lyric video that, and the single drop today. So that's out, that's our second release for this record.

And then of course the album is coming out on the 18th of September. So we are definitely talking and trying to come up with different ways that we can stay out there so that people can hear stuff. So we're in your minds and in your ears and a lot of the festivals that we had booked, if not all of them that were booked for this last, this summer, um, want us to play their festivals next year, next summer.

But that just all, it's all predicated on whether or not the world clears this up and cleans up things and you know, you get back to some kind of normalcy.

Yeah. I'm not sure normal is ever going to be back for, for a long time.

It's really hard. It's really hard to say. I mean, it's very frustrating, we all tend to feel like, and I'm sure you feel the same way, even though it's getting better there, you know? We feel pretty caged in especially when you have a record, then you're, you're really chomping at the bit to get out and play and perform again, which, you know, it's been a while for Heathen. I was very excited and ready to go, trained hard to get ready for the tour.

After training hard to do the record and , you know, we - me and my wife went to see Kiss a few weeks before the shelter in place order and it was sort of looming though, the coronavirus was happening, but we didn't know how bad it was because the information you were getting was misinformed.

And we went to see Kiss and I'll never forget it - they came out and yeah, whoever announced the band was like, you, you know, you wanted the best, you've got the best. And they came out with just all the bombs blasting and everything, and just something inside of me just blew up. I was just like, yeah.

And it was, I was excited, you know, to see Kiss, but more than that, it just, it was that feeling of, I get to do this, like in just about a month, you know? And, and then a week later I did a show, It was a sort of a memorial show for the lead singer, from Alva Chorus (?) who had passed away last year. And that was the last show in the Bay area - that was a Thursday night. And that weekend we went into shelter in place. I think maybe Monday.

So with the Kiss tour, was that one of the weird drive-in shows at all?

No, no, it was at the Oakland Coliseum Arena - inside. It was a full on show.

Did you go to any of those drive-in shows at all or see any of them? I saw several reports from other people that I know over the year, they went to one just to see what it was like and just dismal...

Oh yeah. There's, um, well in California where we're from, where we're actually in Florida now, but in California at the Alameda County fair they did that and a few of my friends that play in like tribute bands , tribute, cover bands. One of them is called Hot For Teacher to Van Halen tribute band, and then another one, Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers is of course is ZZ Top and then a couple other ones.

And they did that - got up on stage and then it was like a hundred and something dollars per call. Oh yeah. And they had to keep space and all that. And I mean, you know, it's, I mean, yeah. I don't know. It's not, I don't see us doing that.

It would just not be the same kind of feeling. Cause you're either going to be sitting in the car and isolated or sitting outside of the car drinking and probably making, any kind of benefit of having a distributed isolated show moot. There's just going to be no vibe, no mosh pit. no kind of energy.

Exactly. And you just hit it, you know, no energy.

You guys would be on stage looking at a bunch of Fords, a bunch of Prius's and going, yeah,

Yeah. This is like from the movie cars, you know, you know what I mean? I remember when we did the Sepultura tour, the very last show was at the Hammersmith. It's a beautiful theatre and it's very famous that, I mean, the Beatles played there, you know, but, it's a seated venue and there's like an area in the front, you know, um, I guess it's kind of a press area or whatever for folk, you know, photographers and stuff; but it was like, it was like playing on the Ed Sullivan show, you know what I mean? You're on the stage and everybody's sitting there looking at you and they, and then they clap at the, you know, And it was bizarre. I remember just, I'll never forget it. Just walk it out, singing and talking to the crowd.

And it's just kinda like, yeah. Suck the air out of this place. You know,

I remember a few years ago when A Perfect Circle played here, it was a seated show. Me and several other photographers were up in the photo pit, but everyone was sitting down right next to us and it just, it felt really uncomfortable for us. And I can't imagine what the band felt like as well.

I appreciate having seats and my knees appreciate having seats available, but as an entire seated show, just, ah, it just doesn't feel right.

It's okay if you know, there's, it's seated and then there's like, you get the general admission type people up in the front to supply the energy level, you know, but I could see it like now, like if, if it was a seated event and everybody had to wear mask for awhile , it would kind of suck, but at least people could come and listen to us, you know, come to a show and listen, and bang their head. They don't have to go ballistic, you know, they can just have to refrain from full on, but it would be better than sitting in your car.

Yeah. Well, what do you think about the whole kind of movement recently of the streaming concerts? Where you're playing in a venue that's essentially empty apart from having some, a few cases and a few small guests, and then streaming it to the internet. What's your views on, on that kind of scenario that we're getting these days?

I'd be open to it. We're talking about it. It's just, it's just a matter of pulling it together. And we talked about doing remote where we're all just at home and we're on five different screens. I think that if we did something - I would like to do something and make it fun. You know what I mean? It's entertaining and get some comedy in there somehow, you know, just to keep it lighthearted, not so intense, but you know, just, you know what I mean? Not take it so seriously and just have fun with it.

I think kind of a - a Heathen jam session. A practice session will probably actually be kind of caught up to watch. And just like even just seeing you guys interact and have banter between yourself as you're writing a song or all that kind of stuff, it would be kind of, it would be cool.

That's kind of what I'm talking about, you know, I'm just playing, you know, not necessarily, you know, be like, it would be like a rehearsal but definitely, cause when we get together , we always have good time, always have fun. And consequently, this band with the new lineup , with Jason and Jim , we've never played together. We've only recorded a record together. So, you know, we were all looking forward to, to actually get in, in the studio, rehearse and get ready for the tour and just feel everybody out, you know, and get the cohesiveness together with a group. And we haven't been able to do that yet.

So you've not actually played together at all. Not even a, in a rehearsal scenario yet. Oh, wow.

No - because we all live all over the country now. So we had worked it out. When we recorded the record, Jim actually flew in and they recorded the drum tracks in Connecticut and then Lee and I went to Massachusetts to record with Zeus.

There was a few of us together when we're working on the process and we spent time together cause we stayed in Massachusetts, but , the entire group has not been in a room together to play music anyway.

It's a weird thought that these days that you can actually record an album of such a high caliber and have it come out sounding so great and have never actually played together - together.

Well, we're professionals. We do our homework, you know, and, and the thing is, is that, I mean, We've we have played with Jason before. One show he filled in for Jason Viebrooks , years ago, we had a show with Death Angel and Jason Viebrooks had a - he was unloading a truck and he was on the back of the tailgate of this big truck and somehow or another, he got catapulted off that tailgate and he had like a Mr. Roper - what was the guy's name from that show? He had like this big wad of keys hanging from his belt loop. And when he fell, he landed on the keys and it broke his, it broke his femur.

So he couldn't do the show, so Jason Mirza came up from LA and he did the show. Then we knew that he's a viable option in the future depending on how things go. Um, but yeah, we've never as a band, never played with Jim. So...

Well I hope you guys managed to actually get a chance to play together and actually get some shows under your belt.

Oh, we will - it's rough for everybody right now.

And I hope you guys get to come down to either Australia or New Zealand and play some shows down here as well. That would be awesome to to see.

I know. It'd be awesome. I want to do a show with the flight of the Conchords.

So it's been great talking to you and I love the album, so I'm just going to go listen to it some more.

Oh, good. Well it's a record that it takes, you know what I mean? There's so many layers and there's so much going on , even when I listened to it, there's things that, you know, headphones and everything, you know, I'm like, Oh, well, yeah, I miss that.

You know, whatever, you know, so definitely dive in more.

Yeah, I need to find a lyric sheet somewhere and kind of dive into some of those lyrics as well.

Well, check out the lyric video that just came out for Empire Of The Blind that'll give you that. And then. In a few weeks or when, I guess it's what, six weeks now - all that will be revealed.